Mary SpicuzzaMilwaukee Journal Sentinel
Organized crime in Milwaukee has never been as infamous as the Chicago Outfit or the New York Mafia. But reputed Milwaukee crime boss Frank Balistrieri was notorious enough by the late 1970s that renowned undercover FBI agent Joseph Pistone came here to help investigate.
Pistone was later portrayed by Johnny Depp in “Donnie Brasco,” a 1997 movie that also starred Al Pacino as New York crime family member Benjamin “Lefty” Ruggiero.
When I started doing research for my investigation into my cousin's 1978 car bombing murder, widely believed to have been ordered by Balistrieri, a coworker mentioned Pistone wrote about Milwaukee in his book that inspired the film.
As soon as I read it, I knew I needed to talk to Pistone. I wasn’t sure of the best way to approach him — especially since the Mafia put out a $500,000 contract on him in the early 1980s — but reached him through the producer for his podcast, “Deep Cover: The Real Donnie Brasco.”
We spoke at length about his time in Milwaukee. Below are excerpts of that conversation, edited for length and clarity.
A marriage between two crime families
Pistone's work in Milwaukee included vouching for another undercover FBI agent, Gail "Ty" Cobb, who was trying to infiltrate the Balistrieri crime family by posing as a vending machine businessman named Tony Conte. Pistone visited Milwaukee several times in 1978 to try to "form a marriage" between the Balistrieri and Bonanno crime families.
Spicuzza: Do you remember what Frank Balistrieri's reputation was like back then?
Pistone: Frank Balistrieri was the head of a Mafia family in Milwaukee, which was aligned and associated with the Mafia families out of Chicago (the Outfit). And he was also a very well known Mafia boss throughout the United States.
He had some college education. But he was still a ruthless individual, according to my Mafia contacts that I was associated with in the Bonanno crime family.
He actually controlled everything that happened, both illegally and a lot of times legally.
Spicuzza: What do you remember about him from your meetings or your dealings with him?
Pistone: Hewas a little short, pudgy guy. Very dapper looking. Every time I saw him he was in a suit — dressed in a suit and very well-spoken. And you could see that when he made a point, none of the people that were with him disputed whatever he said. I mean, what he said was a rule of law.
After (one) meeting at Snug's, at the restaurant, he invited us to his house for dinner the next night. If you know anything about the Mafia, you don't go to a boss's house for dinner. I mean, not in New York, anyway. And he actually picked us up at our hotel, which was also crazy, for us being New York mob guys.
Life undercover
As Pistone developed ties with Balistrieri and his associates, he went through both stressful and humorous moments. That included close calls with getting found out, and the antics of "Lefty" Ruggiero, who at one point confused Lake Michigan with the ocean.
Spicuzza: Lefty wanted to take a speedboat from New York to Milwaukee?
Pistone: Yeah. Ty was showing us around Milwaukee and we're driving along the lake, and he says, "That's one of the Great Lakes." And Lefty looks out and he says, "It's not a lake. That's the ocean." There were freighters out there, and he said, "You see that big ship out there? That ship couldn't float on a lake. It's got to be the ocean."
Yeah, OK, Lefty. The ocean where? The middle of the United States?
There were some other good (stories). Another one was, Ty was one of the best undercovers I ever worked with. I mean, he was good. But we're in a car one day. It might have been the same time. And he was driving and Lefty was riding shotgun, and I'm in the back. And Ty must have had a brain freeze because he keeps calling me Joe. He'd say, "Isn't that right, Joe?"
Lefty finally says, "Tony, who the F is Joe? There's me, you and Donnie in this car. Who the F is Joe?"
So without missing a beat, Ty says, "That's the new thing here in Milwaukee: everybody's Joe. Every place you go, you call somebody, you call them Joe." So all night we go to a restaurant and Ty is calling a bartender Joe, is calling a waiter Joe, is calling a waitress Joe.
You know, there were some comical moments during the six years.
Spicuzza: Do you remember the reaction when my cousin, Augie Palmisano, was car bombed?
Pistone: Ty had a remote starter put on his car. And at one of the meetings we had with (Frank) Balistrieri, we're talking about snitches, and he said, “Yeah, you can tell all the snitches because they have remote starters on their car.”
And here Tony Conte, the undercover, had a remote starter on his car. So that kind of, you know, shook him up a little bit.
Spicuzza: Did you often not know who was an informant when you were undercover?
Pistone: No, I did not. I didn't want to know who an informant was, or if the FBI had added any informants in any of the groups. I said, "Look, if you do have informants, don't tell them that there's an undercover FBI agent there. I don't want to know who the informant is." Because it's human nature. You're going to act different if you know that somebody is on your side, so to speak.
Frozen out
In late 1978, Balistrieri froze out Cobb, reportedly after discovering he was an undercover agent. It led to the end of Pistone's time in Milwaukee, but by then, the two had already collected extensive information that was later used in federal gambling and extortion cases against Balistrieri and his associates.
Spicuzza: How do you think they could have found out that Tony Conte, or Ty Cobb, was an undercover agent?
Pistone: Well, there had to be a leak somewhere. Where, we don't know. But Ty had been a cop in a town outside of Milwaukee at one point in time. And I'm sure that they checked what individuals knew regarding Ty. And I think that's probably how they found out. There had to be a leak somewhere.
Spicuzza: If Balistrieri had found out Ty was an undercover agent, why do you think he didn't tell the Bonannos or the other crime families?
Pistone: I don't know. I'll be honest with you. I mean, I don't know. It's the craziest thing that they never they never blew the whistle.
We tried to figure it out. I tried to figure it out. I don't know that they thought that he was an FBI agent or just an undercover cop. I don't know. But the reason they never told New York or Chicago is beyond me. I mean, it doesn't make any sense.
Going to trial
Pistone's work in Milwaukee helped federal prosecutors eventually convict Balistrieri of gambling, extortion and conspiracy during a series of trials in the 1980s. Pistone and Cobb were among those who testified in Milwaukee.
Spicuzza: I think it was in Milwaukee where Frank Balistrieri’s attorney was asking you questions about where your family lived.
Pistone: Oh, definitely. His line of questioning started about where I resided, et cetera. And I told him I’m not going to answer, it has no relevance to my investigation.
The judge ordered me to answer, and I told the judge, “Your Honor, I'm not answering. I'm not answering where I reside, where my family resides." He said, "Well, I'll hold you in contempt of court." I said, "Do what do you have to do."
And then finally, the prosecutor (John Franke) called the side conference in and advised the judge that there was a $500,000 contract out of me at the time.So the judge told him, "Just move on. We don't need to answer that question."
(At another point in the trial)
Pistone: It was late into the afternoon. And my voice was going, and I didn't have any water by the witness stand … so (the defense attorney) poured a glass of water from his table, from the defense table, and brings it to me. So I take the glass and I look at it and I say, "You take a sip first."
So he did. He took it, took a sip. And I said, "OK, now I'll have a drink of it."
The jury, everybody, even the judge laughed.
Life after the trials
In addition to the Balistrieri trials, Pistone testified at a number of other trials around the country involving organized crime figures. He still does not disclose where he and his family live.
Spicuzza: Have you noticed in your work a kind of the glorification of the Mafia and misunderstanding of what they're really like?
Pistone: Back in their heyday, yeah, they were glorified. If they knew that you were even associated with the Mafia, you were treated like royalty. And of course, if you had an Italian last name, (it was assumed you had) some association with the Mafia.
I don't think it's so much anymore today. AndI'm proud to say that our case was the beginning of all the Mafia cases that brought the downfall of them. They're not as strong. They have nowhere near the strength today that they had back in the day. They're just another criminal element, another criminal organization. I don't even know if Milwaukee has any any Mafia members there.
Spicuzza: Do you have any other memories of Milwaukee?
Pistone: Bad winters. Bad winters. Good Lord, I remember one snowstorm — I don't know how many feet of snow there was, but wow. And cold. That's what I remember.
And good restaurants. A lot of good restaurants in Milwaukee.
Contact Mary Spicuzza at (414) 224-2324 or mary.spicuzza@jrn.com. Follow her on Twitter at @MSpicuzzaMJS.
