Ohio State, Michigan and the fundamental difference that separates their approach to building a contender: Buckeye Talk podcast (2024)

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Ohio State and Michigan take very different approaches to putting together a college football roster.

Stars matter to one program that is constantly sitting near the top of the recruiting rankings. The other relies on the diamonds in the rough often overlooked in those same rankings. On paper, it’s clear which approach should result in a national title, but it’s the other approach that’s gotten the job done, not only in The Game the last three years, but on the national stage in 2023.

On this episode of Buckeye Talk, Stephen Means and Andrew Gillis explore why by looking a the contrasting styles, then discuss where they might collide in the future.

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.

Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Stephen Means (00:17.6)

Welcome back to Buckeye Talk. I’m Stephen Means and that’s Andrew Gillis and it’s day three of Michigan Week. I hope you liked so far what we’ve done. Obviously set the scene on Monday and looking at how we got to where we are in the rivalry today and obviously on Tuesday, looking back on Michigan’s 2023 National Championship team and trying to see if we think Ohio State’s 2024 team can not only compete, but could they beat them? Could they beat them on the field? Where, listen, I mean, a lot of those guys only lost about six points a year ago. So could they potentially beat that national?

Championship team. This is day three and we’re looking at this now from the recruiting angle where we’re simply going to ask the question do stars matter and I’m gonna say yes, they do matter. They do matter stars matter. Listen, there’s the they’re not all okay rankings are not that bad They’re not perfect, but they’re not bad. But Andrew we’re looking at two programs here who have gone about over the past pretty much

four or five years ago, building national championship caliber programs, but on polar opposite ends of the spectrum. You’re talking about Ohio State where routinely top five recruiting classes, while with Michigan, it’s like barely ever a thing. And it’s almost this push and pull to figure out which side of the table is right.

Right? That’s almost what that end of November is. It’s like, listen, we do a thing. This is our way of life. This is our way of life. Our way of life is better. No, our way of life is better. We hate you. No, we hate you. OK, let’s settle it on the field at the end of every season. Ohio State has dominated this rivalry for much of the last 20 years. For the last three years, it’s been Michigan. So let me throw these numbers at you first. Since Ryan Day took over Ohio State’s program in 2019, Ohio State has had 48 top 100 recruits.

that they’ve lent signed. This is through recruiting. The transit part of this we’re not going to worry so much about. 21 of them have been five -star recruits. Michigan has 11 top 100 recruits and only two five -star recruits. First of all, if I had to have you guess right now who are Michigan’s two five -star recruits in the past five years, who do you think they are?

Andrew (02:23.022)

Well, it’s McCarthy. JJ’s won.

Andrew (02:29.838)

There was an offensive lineman, I wanna say. no, all right. Who was it? you should have known that. I was looking him up earlier.

Stephen Means (02:31.744)

Wrong!

Will Johnson, Will Johnson, the number 15 player, the number three cornerback in the 2022 recruiting class who has since turned into a five star player in college football. So here’s how I want to explore this. Andrew.

We talk a lot about Ohio State football recruiting and we’re gonna always talk about Ohio State football recruiting and it’s very clear what we think about Ohio State football recruiting. We know where they’re strong at, we know where they maybe need to pick up the pace a little bit. We’ll obviously get into the 2025 class at some point, but I wanna explore this from Michigan’s standpoint. When you look at their recruiting classes, what’s something that makes you maybe impressed?

by how they go about things and what they’re able to do, what you think their strength is on the recruiting trail, but then also what’s something that makes you look a little sideways and go, why do you do things that way? What’s going on there? Why isn’t that better?

Andrew (03:28.718)

So one of the strengths I see and you know, I don’t know if you phrase it like this in terms of a what position do they recruit? Well, I don’t think you did. You’re a smart guy. I think it’s I’m going to look at it holistically because one of the things that they do very well is they identify players that are Michigan players.

And I think that that is a cliche. I think that that sucks as an answer to give, but I think it’s true because you hear all the time about Ryan Day or whatever position coach or whoever say, that guy’s a buck guy. You know, that guy’s well, I think Michigan does this very well. I mean, I don’t know if they say that guy’s a Wolverine or that guy’s a Michigan man or whatever, whatever they say, but that’s what they do really well.

I have some stats if you’re ready for them. I looked at the 13 draft picks that they just had and where they went in the, or where they were ranked in the two four seven sports composite rankings. Here’s their rankings. And this is this past draft. So this is the 2024 NFL draft, 25th overall, the one five star that’s JJ McCarthy linebacker, 60th overall, junior Colson running back Blake Quorum.

129 wide receiver, Cornelius Johnson, 177 offensive lineman, Trevor Keegan, 178, Zach Zinter, 249 offensive lineman, edge rusher, Jalen Harrell, 309 wide receiver, Roman Wilson, 346. Those are the four stars. So one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, four stars out of that group were, or seven players out of that 13 were four stars.

Then you had five three stars and listen to this list of names. Chris Jenkins, defensive lineman, number 502, the second player off the board was a three star player. Mike Sandristil, who some people have called the best pound for pound defensive player in the draft. And the reason they say that is because he’s like five nine, but he’s.

Stephen Means (05:40.576)

Yeah, why do we do that? Why is it always the pound for pound with the little guys?

Andrew (05:43.118)

Yeah, because you know what, I think everybody, I don’t think anybody wants to say that like, hey, he’s not gonna be as good as he could be because he’s too short, or because he’s too small.

Stephen Means (05:52.256)

but then don’t say anything. It’s like, it’s almost, hey, if you were bigger, we think you’d be the greatest of all time. It’s like, well, I can’t control that. This is my height. Like I don’t, everything else I can control. This is genetics, but I’ve always had the problem with the pound for pound thing, but continue on. You have a point.

Andrew (05:58.158)

That’s pretty much what they’re saying!

Andrew (06:06.766)

Yeah, so Sanders still 589 overall. Liderius Henderson, he was a transfer player. 730 overall. He was a three star player as well. Michael Barrett linebacker 751. Tight end AJ Barner 1131st. He was also a transfer, so he had two transfers in that group, both three stars, but. If you’re an Ohio State fan, would you have not taken Sanders on your team? Of course you would have. You would have thrown him in the slot and he would have started like I with all due respect to Jordan Hanco*ck.

Samson would have played, he would have been the starter. He would have been the starting nickel. He would have been the guy you put in the slot because he was that good. He was like that. Chris Jenkins, you don’t think he would have played? Chris Jenkins absolutely would have played on this team. And I know Ohio State’s defensive linemen were great, but Chris Jenkins is at least carving out a role and at least making that a three man rotation. Like these are Zach Zinter, Trevor Keegan. These are guys that are not top 100 recruits.

are not elite level recruits in the way that maybe Ohio State polls. And what they have done is they have found a mold that works for them. And we’re going to get into this over this pod because Steven, I spent the last couple of days and then all of this morning kind of banging my head into a brick wall. And then literally like an hour before we started recruiting, I went, maybe there is no answer. And I think that that’s the answer. Is it development? Is it identification of talent?

Is it recruiting specific positions in specific ways? I think it’s a lot of different things. So I think all encompassing, they just, they find guys that work for them. They find, say, they find Chris Jenkins, they find Roman Wilson, you know, they find the offensive linemen that work and they find the fit and they find players that can play a specific type of role. And that is what I think they do incredibly well.

Where I think they need to improve is where Ohio State kind of is. And that is you need to get high level players to win high level football games because I’m not trying to take anything away from Michigan. Although every listener of this podcast would beg me to take something away from Michigan. I’m not trying to do that right now, but they had a run to the college football playoff or through the college football playoff that.

Andrew (08:32.046)

won’t ever happen again because it was a 14 playoff. You didn’t play anybody until you played Penn State. How good was Penn State to like, I don’t know. You could make the argument they played in their first 13 games. They played one truly elite team and it was Ohio State. And we’re not putting Iowa in that conversation. It’s the question of Penn State. And I don’t think we anybody would classify 2023 Penn State as elite. So you play one elite team through the regular season, you beat them.

in a game where, as we talked on the earlier pod earlier this week, it just, you played the perfect game, really. You didn’t commit any turnovers. Ohio State committed to, you know, you, you played, you know, you played one of the best teams in the country, almost to a draw, you know, the game came down to the last plays and you won the game. And that was a game where if you played it 10 times, you could probably make an argument. It’s 50, 50, right? So you, you win that game.

Then you go to the playoff and you play Alabama and Alabama was still really good. I don’t want to downgrade Alabama either. Alabama was still really good. I think because they weren’t best team of the era Alabama. Everybody went is Alabama really that good? I mean, I don’t know, man. They went 11 and one won the SEC got to 12 and one. They went to college football playoff like they were good. They were really good. Their only loss came to Texas who was another college football playoff team. Alabama was really good and they beat Alabama in overtime in a game that.

Alabama felt like towards the end of the game, could have won that game and they didn’t. And then you get to the title game and you play Washington and Washington might have been more of an anomaly than Michigan was like everything just kind of mapped out perfectly for them. And I don’t know if that’s repeatable in the 12 team playoff because I don’t think it is because you’re going to have to go through a tougher conference schedule and you’re going to have to go through a tougher road to the national championship game and to win it ultimately. So.

What do you need to do in those situations? You need high level players. You need a guy that’s going eighth overall because he’s one of the best receivers in the country. Like I think for as much as Michigan wants to be that ground and pound, run the ball, you can’t stop us. We’re going to out physical you. That’s great. And their defense, I think was good in that regard as well. You need playmakers that Ohio State has like, right. You need, I think we talked before the year.

Andrew (10:55.822)

Ohio State had better odds to win the national championship than Michigan did, but Michigan had better odds to win the big 10 than Ohio State did. And I think that that’s a really good encapsulation of that fact was that you can win a conference championship by get low fire off, hat on a hat, run the ball. It’s a lot harder to win a national, you want a conference championship that way. It’s a lot harder to win a national championship without those dudes. So you’ve got to get those top a hundred players. You’ve got to get those difference makers.

because yes, it is good for Michigan that they are turning around these players that are really good, that are 346 in the country and 502nd in the country. You’ve also got to get some high level dudes and those guys have got to hit as well. So sorry for that monologue, but there’s a lot going on.

Stephen Means (11:42.656)

No, you hit on the reason why this is such an interesting topic in my opinion is, is it sustainable to win like this? And the reason why it’s an interesting question is the team I think about is Clemson. So here’s the national champions of the 14 college football playoff era. And then starting in 2015, the 247, they started doing a talent composite every single year where they just like.

Stephen Means (13:43.904)

And I think what you hit on there, the is it sustainable part? That’s the part that I really wanted to touch on more than everything else here. Since 2015, 247 Sports has been having this talent composite every year where they just compile up who are the most talented teams in college football based on.

Recruiting talent they started in 2015 Alabama is the most talented team in 2015 They win the national championship the other four teams in that book USC was number two, Ohio State’s number three Florida State is number four Alabama’s the only one that makes the college football playoff in 2016 again Bama’s number one USC’s number two LSU’s number three Florida State’s number four again Alabama’s the only team in the top four who wins the national championship. Meanwhile the team who act

excuse me, who makes the college football playoff. Meanwhile, the team who actually wins the national championship, Clemson, they’re ninth on this list. Only four, four, five star recruits on that roster. 2017, Alabama wins the national championship again. They’re the most talented team in college football. Ohio State’s number two, USC’s number three, Georgia’s number four. So again, 2017, only two of the three most talented teams in college football.

make the college football playoff Clemson who ends up losing Alabama that year, six five stars. So they’re starting to uptick, but they’re still only ninth in that ranking. And then in 2018, Ohio States, the most talented team in the country. Obviously they missed the college football playoff because they lose to Purdue earlier in the season. Alabama’s number two, Georgia’s number three, USC is number four. USC, as you can see, a consistent amongst the top four most talented teams in the country in terms of recruiting talent. But as we all, and they’re in the Pac -12, which isn’t.

You know, the Pac -12 of 2004 and yet they’re still not getting to the college football playoff. Alabama gets to the national championship game. Georgia misses the college football playoff. Clemson wins the national championship in 2018. They’re six. They’ve had an uptick now, nine five stars, thanks to the 2018 recruiting class where you’ve got Trevor Lawrence and those guys. 2019.

Stephen Means (15:39.392)

LSU wins the national championship. Alabama is the most talented team in the country. Doesn’t make the college football playoff. In fact, Ohio State once again, they’re two, Georgia’s three, USC is four. Ohio State’s the only team amongst the top four who makes the college football playoff. USC has this uptick in talent with Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson coming alive and everybody else. Their fifth that year in the rankings with seven five stars. Clemson is still not. Clemson’s like the consistent thing here. They’re not amongst the five most talented teams in the country.

but they’re consistently one of the most, one of the four best teams in the country. And the same thing in 2020, Georgia is the most talented team in the country. Doesn’t make the college football playoff. Alabama’s too. They make the college football playoff and win the national championship and then Ohio state and Clemson close that out. So three of the four. And I can keep going down the list here, but what I’m, the reason why I’m bringing up Clemson is eventually Clemson falls off, right? Clemson gets away from the way they had been recruiting where it wasn’t.

Andrew (16:31.342)

Right, what, yeah.

Stephen Means (16:36.704)

these uber talented teams right full of five stars. Then they get the 2021 that have the fourth most talented team in the country. They have 10 five star recruits on their roster and they just have like a down year. I think they go 10 and two or nine and three that year with a five star quarterback starting in a bunch of five stars around him. And the reason why I’m bringing up Clemson in this situation is Clemson started recruiting like Ohio State, Alabama, Georgia, not quite to that level, but just that type of talent is coming in. They’re getting top 50 recruits and all of a sudden.

over these last couple of years that we’ve seen that kind of ticked downward and using Clemson and talking about Michigan and talking about, is it sustainable to win that way? I think yes. I wonder if Clemson would have continued to recruit the way they had been recruiting pre getting all these five stars, they’d still be amongst the best teams in the country. But also maybe I’m completely full of crap in this situation. And it’s more just.

When you recruit this way, when you recruit the way Clemson recruited when they were winning national championships, when you recruit the way Michigan has recruited over the last four or five years here, what it does is give you a window once those recruits get old. And in 2024, Michigan got old and it meant a national championship, but it also means that when you fall off, you fall off hard and now you have to almost rebuild that from scratch.

Andrew (17:57.646)

So there’s also another metric too that I want to bring up. It’s called blue chip ratio. You know, this is something that two four seven sports does every year, which I think is fantastic. They basically they determine the long and short of it is that they look at the list every year and they say, okay, using past history and using kind of past data and past numbers, what teams can win the national championship?

And every year there’s a number of teams that fit the criteria. Now, could that change in a 12 -team college football playoff? Absolutely. But basically what they wanted to do was they wanted to look at the number of four and five -star recruits that a program brings in. So let’s say you bring in 24 -star recruits and five five -star recruits and no three -star recruits. You got 25 out of 25, 100%.

Let’s say you bring in 10 out of 20, you bring in 10 four and five star players and you bring in 10 three and two star players, your blue chip ratio is 50 % for that recruiting cycle. So that is basically the long and short of it. Going into this year, Michigan out of the 16 teams that quote could have won the national championship was 14. Like they were low.

Their blue chip ratio in 2023 was 54%. Alabama was at 90%. Ohio State at 85, Georgia 77, Texas A 73, Clemson 72. That was the top five. You know, there were some other kind of notable schools. LSU is in there. Oklahoma is in there. Oregon is in there. Notre Dame is in there. Miami, Penn State, USC was 52%. There were a lot of schools that were good. And I think it just kind of goes to show you that did anybody think Auburn was going to win the national championship? No, you shouldn’t.

because Auburn’s on that list. Did anybody think Notre Dame was going to win the national championship? You shouldn’t have. No, because, but Notre Dame was on that list. Same with Miami, same with Florida, same with Texas A Like there were, there were a lot of schools on that list where you’re like, okay. So, and I don’t think it was crazy to think before the year, man, Michigan can’t do this. Michigan’s going to do what they always do. Maybe they’ll beat Ohio state, but then they’re going to play Alabama and then they’re going to play Georgia and they’re going to get run off the field.

Andrew (20:21.294)

That’s the way it always, that’s the way it happens. You know, they’re going to play a team that’s also really good and they’re going to lose and they’re going to lose maybe really badly. and that’s where we’re at. So I do think that the blue chip ratio is notable, but when you look at some of those figures like Clemson in these past handful of years, like in, in 2016, they were just at 52%.

They also had a quarterback at that time by the name of Deshaun Watson, who was pretty good in college. 2018, they won it again with 61%, which was way lower than some of the other schools. They had a quarterback at that time named Trevor Lawrence. So I think it’s somewhat sustainable, but I also think, especially as, you know, maybe you get to an era where guys who might look at fourth, fifth round pick, sixth round pick, you know, like that kind of projection and go, man, I can just stay at school and make.

$800 ‚000. I can make 900. I can, you know, I can go to the league and I can make, you know, 1 .2 million, or I could say in school, make $900 ,000 and try to make up the difference in other NIL benefits or, you know, with, with an increased draft slot next year or whatever. And I think that as you know, like this can evolve and this can change over the years, but you also got to take into account that the teams that have win it, the teams that are winning have first round quarterbacks.

like on their team. And I know we went into the year saying, I think JJ McCarthy is the best quarterback in the Big 10, but he’s definitely not going to be the best quarterback in the Big 10 by the end of the year. No way. That’d be crazy. And no way JJ McCarthy could be a first round pick. That’d be crazy. Well, he was, and he was a national championship winning quarterback who was a Big 10 quarterback. And it wasn’t an Ohio State quarterback, which was, which is kind of crazy to think about. And he was the 11th, I think 11th, I think it was.

11th overall to the Vikings. Like that is the type of thing that needs to happen if you’re not going to have the Monstars to throw the ball to offensively, or you’re not going to have elite level defenses. So I think it’s, it is somewhat sustainable, but the margin for victory and the margin for that path is way smaller than a team like Ohio state has, right? Like you can win with Ohio state in a couple of different ways. Whereas with Michigan,

Andrew (22:45.23)

You know, you need your quarterback to make a play at some point. And like we said the other day, they asked J .J. McCarthy to make plays in certain spots and he always made them. But you need that to happen or else you’re not going to win. You know, think about that last drive against Alabama or, you know, think about, you know, that one handed catch that he made before they ran that trick play in the in the game against Alabama. Like you need your quarterback to make some plays. And if he doesn’t, you’re going to lose. I don’t care how good the rest of your team is. So.

It’s sustainable, but the margin, I think that’s the best way to put it. The road is a hell of a lot more narrow than it is with another.

Stephen Means (23:21.76)

So that’s in, to bring it up, and I know we’re using Clemson a lot here, but that’s the other team at Hall State hates, so why not? Clemson had a five -star quarterback in Trevor Lawrence. Clemson had a top 10 draft pick in Deshaun Watson, right? They had back -to -back, elite, kind of generational quarterback play, right? And so that’s, to your point, it allowed them to sustain that.

longer than maybe the rest of their roster suggested they should have been able to sustain it because maybe they didn’t have the more talented roster in some of these games, but they had they for sure had the better quarterback in some of these games. Right. And even when they got on the field with Ohio State in 2019, it’s like I don’t know. I mean, it’s to kind of take your pick with Justin Fields and Trevor Lawrence the way they were playing that year. But Trevor made a few more plays down the stretch. Right. That’s what that came down to in that situation. While with Georgia.

When they won back to back national championships, no, they didn’t have a first round quarterback. But they also had like a million five star recruits at top 100. It’s almost like, do you have one or the other, which is where Ohio state comes into this conversation. And we’ll get into that. Let’s take a quick break here and then let’s bring Ohio state into that conversation. And where we think Ohio state might take that even a step further here on Buckeye Talk.

Andrew (24:22.382)

Yeah, they have nine, three, five -star defensive linemen, yeah.

Stephen Means (24:41.504)

And we’re back on Buckeye Talk, we’re comparing Ohio State and Michigan as recruiting programs, which is, I think, an interesting conversation that’s evolved into just whether we think what Michigan is doing is sustainable, and also whether we think Ohio State and what they have been doing, which is clearly sustainable, but can it finally maximize itself in 2024? So here’s the conclusion we’ve come through, through the first 20 minutes of this pod, Andrew, and this is probably not the most enlightening conclusion, everybody probably already knew this, but fine. You either need to have,

super duper, super duper quarterback play, or you need to have everything else around that quarterback be so magnificent that it doesn’t matter that your quarterback is not going to be a top 32 draft pick because.

Andrew (25:23.886)

But I mean, it depends on what the goal is, but yes, generally I agree. To win a national championship, I think you still need above average to good quarterback play. I think, yeah. Yeah, you’re not trotting out a bunch of nobodies, yeah.

Stephen Means (25:27.584)

International championship. I don’t care about

Stephen Means (25:33.76)

Yeah, I’m listening. First of all, you’re new. You’re still new here. So you weren’t around for the Stetson Bennett days and how we used to talk about him. He’s the floor of how bad your quarterback play can be worked. Stetson, first of all, Stetson was a Heisman Trophy finalist in 2022. So it’s like he was a terrible quarterback.

Andrew (25:42.646)

Yeah

Andrew (25:52.43)

Good for, I mean, look, good for Stetson Bennett. Lived out his dream. Yeah, exactly. But then his career’s over.

Stephen Means (25:54.56)

But that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that

Terrible quarterback play, as you said, it’s still above average, average at best level talent for quarterback. Let’s do the quarterback talent. He’s average quarterback talent. CJ Stroud is exceptional quarterback talent. Trevor Lawrence, exceptional. Justin Fields, exceptional. Tua, exceptional. That’s why he replaced Jalen Hurts in the middle of that game in 2018. Do you have exceptional quarterback play even if you don’t have the other pieces?

That’s what Clemson was. And I think. But Clemson was also old and older teams. That’s where Michigan comes in. Michigan had that same kind of formula of. JJ McCarthy was exceptional when he needed to be exceptional. Well, now we can have it. I mean, we’re not going to sit here and have another hour long conversation about if he was consistently exceptional, because that’s probably a different conversation. But when he needed to be exceptional, whether it was against Ohio State or in the college football playoff, he showed up. Well, also.

Michigan was old, very old football team. That combination, as we’ve seen with both Clemson and Michigan, can lead to national championships. Georgia, exceptional everywhere but quarterback. Alabama has been exceptional everywhere and quarterback. And I think that’s the Ohio State formula. Ohio State is exceptional everywhere and quarterback. That’s the formula they wanna use to win a national championship, which is why.

Their classes are top five classes in the country every year while also having a quarterback like Tavion St. Clair, like CJ Stroud, like Kyle McChord, like Quinn Uers. You know, what they turn into as players, that’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about as recruits. Kyle McChord was a five -star quarterback as a recruit. CJ Stroud was a top 50 recruit. Quinn Uers was a five -star quarterback. Tavion St. Clair might end up being the number one quarterback in his class by the time he graduates. Julian Sand, Aaron Nolan, five -star quarterback, and that’s it. They want both.

Stephen Means (28:20.736)

They want the best of both worlds. And that is not only going to work for you in the immediate, but that makes sure that you get as many swings at it as possible, which is what Alabama did. They just maximized it for a decade and a half. Now with Nick Saban gone, it feels like there’s a void to be filled there. And Georgia and Ohio State are the two teams trying to fill it.

Andrew (28:45.518)

Yeah, you know, the thing with the like, the thing with Michigan that should be very, you know, I’m trying to think of a word, not beneficial for Ohio State, I guess beneficial for Ohio State fans, but the thing with Michigan that should give Ohio State fans great joy here. Besides, look, Michigan just won the national championship that should piss every single Ohio State fan off for forever. I get it. You should all be mad that that happened. You should all be mad that you had to watch that on TV.

But because of everything that happened with Michigan’s staff, and I’m not even talking about like NCAA punishments right now, I’m just saying that because everybody bounced, I don’t know if they’re gonna get that national title bump that you might expect a program like Michigan to get, right? Because what do kids want in college football? You know, Steven, you’ve done this for years and what do kids want? you look like you’re gonna say something, go ahead.

so what do kids want? They want to win a national championship. They want to go to college and they want to win. They want to win something. They want to hoist a trophy. They want to post on Instagram of themselves holding a trophy and they want to say, I did this. You can never take this away from me. My team did this. You can never take this away from us. That’s what they want. They also want to go to the NFL. Michigan just had a bunch of dudes go to the NFL and they just won a national championship. That is number one and number two.

I’m just remarkably high on the list of what people want because the money is going to come from everywhere now. I think programs are starting to get their NILs together. You know, that includes programs who might have been dragging their feet a little.

Stephen Means (30:27.968)

Some schools are getting sued by how they’re handling an IELTS.

Andrew (30:31.566)

Yeah, some schools are getting sued now. Yeah, exactly. But like, programs are getting their their stuff together. They are kind of and I think one of the things that involves that is they’re doing what Michigan did. They are doing what Ohio State did. They’re not looking at freshmen and 17 year olds going, what if we just gave this 17 year old $850 ‚000 to come to Ohio State or to come to Michigan or to come to USC or to come to Texas? They’re looking at their team going,

What if we just kept Denzel Burke for another year? What if we just paid Denzel Burke to stay? What if we just paid some of these other guys to hang around? What if we just made a fourth year guy a fifth year guy or a third year guy a fourth year guy? And that is kind of the thing with Michigan that I’m not sure is sustainable here because everybody bounced and it’s so new and everything’s starting over. So I don’t know if Michigan can hit that level consistently because like you said,

With Alabama, with Ohio State, you’re backing up great teams with usually great quarterbacks. You have a Mac Jones in college. You have a Justin Fields. You have a CJ Stroud. You’ve got great teams surrounded by great quarterbacks. I don’t know if that’s going to be possible for Michigan because of what is going on with everything at Michigan. Everybody left. There’s threat of penalties.

I don’t know if that’s sustainable. I think the model is sustainable. I don’t know if it’s sustainable at Michigan because the momentum that they would have had is somewhat gone.

Stephen Means (32:14.144)

So let’s, the other thing I really want to touch on today before we move into what’s going on in the 2025 classes for both Ohio State and Michigan is talent should be the tiebreaker when you get on the field.

And in most cases it is, right? Who’s the more talented team in football? More than maybe most sports and football, if you have the more talented team, you’re going to win. Now there’s intricacies and sometimes it goes the other way, right? You get a hot day from another team. But for the most part, from a long point view, the more talented team is going to win, which is why the name of the game in college football is accumulate as much possible talent as humanly possible, develop it and get it on the field. The more talented team has not won the Ohio State Michigan game last.

three years. And yes, Michigan was very good last year. Every metric says Ohio State was more talented in 2022. Every metric said Ohio State was more talented in 2021. Every metric has said it. Even the NFL draft has said it. This past year it didn’t, but that’s because most of the people who would have gotten drafted for Ohio State stayed in school. We’re having a whole different conversation about what that draft would have looked like.

had JT and Jack and Denzel Burke and Jordan Hanco*ck and Tylek Williams and Nomekka Buka and Trevion Henderson and Lathan Ransom all gone. It doesn’t mean Ohio State would have had a bunch of first round draft picks and they might have 25, but in 24, it had just meant instead of having like five guys drafted, maybe they would have had like 12 or 13 guys drafted. I think that’s a fair thing to say. But they didn’t win the game the last couple of years. So you can’t, talent hasn’t been the tiebreaker.

So you watched last year, you got an up close personal view at the 2023 game. And I’m sure you’ve watched the 22 and 21 games. What is the fundamental difference that has kept Ohio State from winning some of those games? And if the answer is as simple as just like, sometimes football is just like the answer, then that’s fine. But like what to you?

Andrew (34:06.094)

I did.

Stephen Means (34:22.336)

When you look on paper and see, this is clearly the more talented team. They have an approach that, to your point, and we’ve said this a couple years now, Ohio State is built to win a national championship. Michigan is built to beat Ohio State. And you can be built a certain way and not have it succeed. Why has it succeeded for Michigan in the last three years, even if from a talent standpoint, we’re talking about people in two totally different buildings?

Andrew (34:46.766)

Yeah, you phrase that question in a way that I would somewhat disagree with because you said it singular. I think it’s plural. I think there’s a lot of things that go into this. It’s more than just one. And I think that that’s frustrating for Ohio State. And I think that that’s frustrating for the purposes of this conversation. Number one reason, like you said, just to get it out of the way, football happens. Michigan was good. Michigan was good. Like we don’t have to pretend that Michigan was.

You know, just for like this year they got lucky and then for the two years, they were everybody cheated and they had no talent. Look, the NFL just told us that they had a bunch of talent on that team. 13 players got drafted and I think like five or six more got undrafted free agent deals. Look, that team was really good. So good teams are allowed to beat good teams, right? You know, that that can happen. So football happened. I think that I think that that’s one of the big things. Football happened. I think.

It’s very much you could have two right opinions with this answer. It’s is it a development issue? I think that that’s certainly a question to raise because how does the number 502 defensive lineman have a game like that, right? Or how do the 280th ranked offensive lineman or Liderius Henderson, the 730th ranked offensive tackle or 730th ranked offensive tackle.

That sounds like me in high school. 730th ranked offensive, just overall player, offensive tackle, three star player, play to a level where he’s battling with a five star defensive end in Jack Sawyer or JT Tumaloa. Right? Like how do Trevor Keegan and Zinter and all these other guys on the interior that are just not as highly rated as, you know, some of these other guys or maybe not don’t have as high of NFL draft ceilings as some of these other guys.

How do they win off the ball? What happened there? I think it has to go. I think it comes down to development. I think that it’s a development thing with Michigan. Michigan developed their players really, really well. And you could say that, you know, maybe they were underrated or whatever in the recruiting rankings, but you have to like the recruiting rankings are a thing. Like they do matter. Like you said, Steven, at the outset of this show, the recruiting rankings matter. And.

Andrew (37:11.63)

You have to ask questions like, OK, what happened here? Why? Why is Chris Jenkins so dominant against Ohio State’s offensive line? Because for as much as Ohio State’s offensive line was kind of maligned and everybody kind of talked about it as, you know, hey, what’s going on? Well, Chris Jenkins was like, imagine if Ohio here. I’ll phrase it like this. Imagine if Ohio State signed an off in interior offensive lineman that was number five or two in the class and a three star player. Steven, I need you to imagine our subtext inbox.

after I send out that text saying Ohio State has signed Tim Smith, the three star interior offensive lineman out of the Detroit area, who’s number 502 player in the class. Everybody would be going, my God, get Justin Fry out of here. And yet Chris Jenkins is the 49th overall pick in the NFL draft, and he’s gonna start this year for the Cincinnati Bengals. How does that happen? That’s a development thing. I think it’s also a talent identification thing. You could look at it and say,

Yeah, they developed Chris Jenkins really well. Or was Chris Jenkins just the number 98th overall player in the country that everybody missed? Or did Michigan see something in him that nobody else saw or that very few schools saw? I think there’s really two different answers there, and I think both of them can be true. Did did did Michigan see Mike Sanders still as the five hundred eighty ninth ranked player in the class? Or did they see him as this is a guy who’s going to play one specific role for us? I don’t care that he can’t play outside corner.

and might not be as highly rated. I don’t care that he might not be a first round pick because he’s short. I don’t care that he can’t do this or can’t do that, but he can do this and he can do this really well. Maybe they did like, it’s a development question. It’s a talent identification question. It’s just a sometimes ball knows ball question where it’s just, hey, look, this is the way the ball rolls out and you gotta beat a good team and sometimes you lose. And.

I think that there’s a lot of different things that go into this where you got different styles of play. Does Michigan recruit their style of player better than Ohio State recruits their style of player? You know, one of the things, Steven, that you’ve brought up, because I mean, you’ve done this for a while, is that, you know, in these recruiting rankings, sometimes run grading offensive linemen don’t get that recruiting bump because they don’t have that.

Andrew (39:35.79)

this dude’s six foot seven and he’s 300 pounds, but also look at the way he runs. Also look at the athleticism that he has. Also look at his footwork because typically those run graders look different. Like, I forget the name of the kid, the kid who just committed to Michigan, from St. Ed’s. but I went and saw the Armstrong twins. I saw them play and they had a Michigan committer on their offensive line and they look different and they do. And I’m not saying one’s right or wrong.

But is Michigan better at identifying that talent than Ohio State is? I think that there’s so much that goes into this that boiling it down to, well, Michigan’s just better at development and then leaving it at that, I think that that’s foolish. I think there’s a lot of different reasons and there’s a lot of different ways that you can say Michigan has won this game and this is why Michigan with quote unquote lower rated recruiting classes is beating Ohio State. So it’s not just one thing, it’s like five things.

It’s a lot of different reasons.

Stephen Means (40:35.552)

But is that better at identifying or is that a strength or is that a need almost? Because Michigan.

Andrew (40:44.398)

Because you’re saying because Michigan can’t get these five star players or?

Stephen Means (40:48.576)

That’s actually what I’m asking. Yeah, dude, because it’s Ohio State can get anybody it wants to get that’s a they’re one of maybe five to seven programs who can go out there and get anybody they want to get or at least get interest from anybody they want to get simply because they’ve got a block all on their jet if you if that you walk on walk into a high school with a block on your polo, you’re gonna turn heads in any school that you go into and so Because of that they are in a situation to be picky. I

Andrew (40:50.414)

Yeah, yeah.

Stephen Means (41:18.432)

Now, does that mean that for those five to seven programs who are in that position can sometimes be too picky and overlook? Sure, of course. That’s sports, right? People overlook all the time and they under look and they do everything, of course. Yes. But I’m asking, is Michigan one of those programs? Those five, I’ll expand it to 10. Is Michigan one of those 10 programs? Who can be that? Because if not, then.

I don’t know if them being able to identify maybe diamonds in the rough is a knock against Ohio State as much as it is just Michigan doing what it has to do to maximize itself as a college football program.

Andrew (42:00.974)

That’s a really good point. And when you said that, I thought about the movie Moneyball, which I have quoted on this podcast before. But in the movie, they talk about, we’re not the Yankees. We’re not these other programs. We have to find ways to win. We have, you know, what’s the quote? Like, you know, they’re rich team, there’s poor teams and there’s 50 feet of crap. And then there’s us. I’m not saying Michigan’s underneath the 50 feet of crap because they just won a national championship.

But that’s a good question. Like, I wonder if Michigan looks at certain recruits and goes, you know what, we’re not going to get the number nine overall player in the class, the number one receiver from Florida. Let’s find, let’s get in early on some of these other guys and let’s find the guys that we can get and let’s find the traits that can work for us. I think that that’s a really good point. If you look at the, the offers list on two four seven, Ohio State has seven offers out right now for 2026 receivers.

That’s kind of a product of Brian Hartline just being the undertaker. And every time he walks into a building, it’s just like, I’m just going to pick my woman and we’re going to get most of them. You know, we’re going to find that. Yeah.

Stephen Means (43:11.008)

But also, he can be picky. I’ve had this conversation with people in the building before because I noticed it, I think, back in 22. Maybe, it may have been earlier than that. I don’t remember. I don’t know. The years run together. You do it so long. But I noticed over time, since Ryan Day has taken over the program, Ohio State...

Andrew (43:16.398)

Exactly, but yeah, what?

Stephen Means (43:33.568)

had started dwindling down its offer list on a year by year basis of how many offers they would send out. And I asked him, I’m like, yeah, yeah, you’re noticing that correctly. There’s a reason for that because there’s value in the offer. There’s value in having an Ohio State offer that says something. And so instead of diluting it down, SEC schools do this a lot where they’ll just like send out thousands of offers, but they’re not always committable. And so kids will try to commit and then it’s like, no, we’ll not take it.

Ohio State doesn’t necessarily do that. If you get an offer from Ohio State, it’s committable, which is why they’re picky about how many they send out. So to your point with Brian Hartline, you say he’s only sent out seven offers in the 2026 class. Well, for starters, those guys are sophom*ores and he’ll probably evaluate more guys and add more guys to that list. But that list is not going to get to 30 wide receivers in the country with Ohio State offers. It’s going to get to like 15 to 20, maybe 25, depending on how the cycle is going. But.

Andrew (44:18.734)

Yeah, for sure, over the summer.

Stephen Means (44:31.808)

When you’ve already got, you said you sent out seven, one of them you’ve already landed and that’s Chris Henry Jr. So at most you need to add three more in the class. That’s not a lot of space. So what you have is Ohio State’s already in a position to be picky because they’re Ohio State. Then you add on top of that, Brian Hartline’s Brian Hartline, Ryan Day’s Ryan Day, Tim Walton is Tim Walton, Larry Johnson is Larry Johnson. That’s like four dudes already on this staff who are in positions where.

They work for a school who can be picky, but then also their reputation now allows them to be picky, which is how you get to a place where, as you were saying, Bryan Heartland’s only offered seven receivers in a class, and none of us expect that number to triple or quadruple over the next two years.

Andrew (45:15.246)

How many players at receiver do you think, I know the answer, how many players at receiver do you think Michigan has offered in 2026? Again, they’re sophom*ores in high school right now.

Stephen Means (45:25.376)

Yeah, so that’s, I mean, they probably offered maybe 10 right now, but that number might get up to like 30, 35.

Andrew (45:31.854)

They have offered 32 as of right now, they have offered 32 receivers. So I think that that is a good kind of comparison of teams have to operate differently. And what if, what if we’re just in that world where Michigan is the modern day, like Tampa Bay Rays of baseball, where they just operate a little bit differently and it works for them and it works for them where it’s like, you know what, we’re, we’re going to do things in a manner that is not.

Stephen Means (45:35.136)

Okay.

Andrew (46:00.686)

commiserate with Ohio St not Ohio State because we’ not going to walk into a s want x, y and z. I mean, I coach wants that, you know, don’t let him trick you. this. Michigan would love to with that block and say, we Wolverines, we have arrived because we’re going to offer and this should mean someth

That’s everybody’s dream. I don’t care if you’re a coach at Purdue or Michigan or Texas or Illinois or Oregon. It doesn’t matter. You want to walk into a school and everybody like you said, Steven, go, they turn their heads and go, wow, he’s here. he’s here. this is big. Like you want that. So I just wonder if for now, if Michigan has kind of perfected this model of I mean, if they haven’t perfected it, they’ve come right. They’ve come very close to it. They just won a national championship.

I just wonder if they’ve kind of perfected this moneyball -esque model where it’s, we’re going to find the right players and we’re going to find the correct players and we’re going to develop them in the way that we know best and everything is just going to go through this Michigan system. And I wonder if that’s the way that they’re doing things. I think that that’s a really, really astute point by you, Stephen.

Stephen Means (47:17.248)

It’s almost like, I’m gonna use a baseball point now. It’s like.

Andrew (47:22.286)

Ooh, I like it.

Stephen Means (47:25.696)

Ohio State has, they’re like the Yankees, when the Yankees are the Yankees, and so they’ve just got this lineup, they’ve got this lineup full of heavy hitters, right? So, everybody’s swinging for the fences. And I don’t play baseball, so I don’t know if that’s even the right strategy, but it’s a strategy I’m gonna use. Everybody’s swinging for the fences, right? They’ve got Sosa and Jeter and Aaron Rodger, yes, I know Sosa never played for the Yankees, I’m just saying. No, no.

Andrew (47:29.774)

That’s exactly it.

Andrew (47:47.374)

Aaron Aaron, Steve, Alex Rodriguez. And that hurt my hole.

Stephen Means (47:50.976)

I’m sorry guys. See I don’t baseball that well guys. I’m sorry. I’m sorry But you get what I’m saying here. What I’m saying is they’ve got a lineup full of heavy hitters So they’re swinging for the fences time after time now, they’re not gonna hit a homerun every time they go to bat, but Right, they’re gonna hit a lot of homers. So if this guy strikes out cool the guy coming behind him is gonna hit a homer

And then it really becomes a problem if guys are just getting on base and now you’re getting to RBI’s after RBI’s and grand slams and all that stuff, whatever. Michigan is recruiting to get on the base. They’re getting on base. It’s I don’t know if that’s a conservative looking out, but it’s getting on base and that’s like kind of the goal here. That’s getting that’s actually get on base. So that but what happens is every so often there’s a chance to hit a home run.

And hitting a home run is like, Will Johnson is a five star quarterback from your backyard who’s also a legacy kid and making sure that kid doesn’t go somewhere else. That’s a home run. A home run is JJ McCarthy is from the Midwest. He’s from Illinois. He’s playing football down to IMG and he has this combination of one, he’s a five star quarterback to he hates who you hate. He has his own reasons for hating who you hate.

That’s a home run and it’s a couple more of those guys, right? They’ve had a few top 50 recruits over the years, but that’s how I view Michigan. They’re not gonna hit a home run every time they go to the bat in the recruiting space. But it doesn’t mean that you’re not gonna look up at the score at the end of the game and they have more runs than you. It’s just a different approach to things. And every year, Ohio State’s heavy hitters, heavy hitter recruits get on the field with this formula.

And we see which one did better over the last 365 days and which one actually wins out on the field. Michigan’s won the past three years, Ohio State won all but once in the past 20. And now it’s resetting itself and we’re starting this process over where Sharon Moore, the early signs of the 2025 recruiting class, you’ve got five guys in it, it’s 36 in the country, while Ohio State is once again, they got 12 commits and they have the number two cost in the country already.

Andrew (50:06.99)

I don’t agree. I agree with the thought process of your thinking. I think it’s on the right path. I just I don’t agree with the heavy hitter thing. I think it’s more of just like think of like the Dodgers and Steven, I know you don’t know baseball super well, but think about the Dodgers. The Dodgers had a great team every year. They have a lot of money. They develop really well. They got Mookie Betts as their leadoff hitter. They have Freddie Freeman as their first baseman. I understand. I understand. But.

Stephen Means (50:30.944)

You don’t have to run down baseball rosters. I don’t know them. I don’t know who Mookie Betts is, man.

Andrew (50:35.118)

Very good, very good, very highly paid. So here’s the thing. They got great players, Freddie Freeman, Will Smith, Jason Hayward, all these players, highly paid, highly rated, everybody knows who they are, a lot of name value, a lot of face value. And you’re like, wow, this is just, look at how, like, look, my God, look at this line, they got this guy, and they got this guy, and they got this guy. And how is anybody, now they signed Shohei Otani?

How is it? What? How did they do that? They got this guy. my goodness. And everybody’s just kind of mapping it out going, wow. Wow. What a, what a team. How can anybody, how can anybody lose to these guys? They’re perfect. They’re, they’re one of the best teams in the sport. They’re going to win the world series. And then you get to the NL division series and you play a team that is barely over 500 in the Arizona Diamondbacks. And you’re like,

Who in the world is Christian Walker, their first baseman, and how is he outperforming our guy who we just paid a billion dollars to? How is he beating us? How is he beating us? And I think that that’s the better comparison is that you look at a team like a highly paid outfit where you’re like, wow, look at all this name value, look at all this star value, and you just have a team who catches fire and they do things where you’re like, wow, who is that guy? Where did he come from?

What are you to use a ninth round pick and didn’t sign for much and he’s a college player and he doesn’t really, you know, do anything great. And then all of a sudden he has a 340 OBP and you’re like, okay, that’s crazy. What about our guy? He’s the same thing. So I think it’s kind of one of those situations where it’s not, I don’t know if it’s like hitting for contact is for hitting for power. I think it’s more of just the fact that you’ve got.

a lot of star power on Georgia and Alabama and Ohio State, and then Michigan, a program without a lot of star power, without a lot of highly rated recruiting classes coming in every year, is somehow beating these guys. And it leaves you wondering, what in the world’s going on? And I think that that’s probably a better example.

Stephen Means (52:52.576)

Okay, let’s take our final break here and then let’s wrap up by looking forward here at Ohio State’s 25 recruiting class alongside Michigan’s here on Buckeye Talk. So as I mentioned, get the text 614 -350 -3315. Maybe you think this conversation is just weird.

Actually, if you think it’s weird, please text us. 614 -350 -3315. And if you loved it, please text us. 614 -350 -3315. All news, all analysis, everything you would want. Two weeks free trial, 399 after that. We’re talking Ohio State and Michigan during this third day of Michigan week and comparing them as recruiting entities. And now we’re gonna, we’re looking forward.

Now, Ohio State has the number two class in the 2025 recruiting class, headlined by three five star recruits, Devin Sanchez and Naeem Hofford as the top two cornerbacks in the country and five star quarterback, Tabby and St. Clair. Michigan has five commits in a class that’s ranked 36 in the country. They have one top 100 recruit and that’s Nathaniel Marshall out of Illinois, Finwick Oak Park, which I think might be, no, it’s not, nevermind. Nathaniel Marshall, number 35 player, number four defensive lineman out of Illinois.

They’ve also got Carter Smith, the number 152 player, number 13 quarterback in the country. So both of these teams are set at quarterback in 2025 as of right now. Avery Gatch is probably the most prominent name on Michigan’s board, just because that was someone Ohio State was very much in on, number 235 player, number 15 offensive tackle out of Michigan. And that was a, can Ohio State pull this kid out of Michigan? The answer was no. So right now, Ohio State’s got a better recruiting class, right? They’ve got.

You got to, you list off four, three people before you get to Michigan’s first on the national rankings, right? Devin Sanchez, the Eamhoffer, Tavian St. Clair, and then you say Nathaniel Marshall. Then after that, you’ve got Carter Lowe, Zaheer Mathis, TJ Alford, London Merritt, Nate Roberts. You say all those names before you say another Michigan guy, and that’s Carter Smith. You know, that’s been the case with Ohio State, Michigan. So that’s not the conversation I want to have. The conversation I do want to have is, Ohio State is clearly not done.

Stephen Means (54:54.048)

building its recruiting class is probably halfway full at this point as it enters official visits over the next couple of weeks here, which we’ll talk about that as well. Are there players that they’re in on together where it’s like, it’s a real battle between Ohio State and Michigan to land this guy?

Andrew (55:09.614)

Yeah, so there’s a couple guys in 25 and 26. Avery Gatch, you mentioned that was one guy that Ohio State was in on. Michigan won. Carter Lowe was another guy that Michigan was in on and Ohio State won. You know, we spoke with Carter Lowe after his commitment and one of the things that he said was that, you know, he thought Ohio State was really kind of on him from the start. He’s like, Ohio State really was kind of in from the beginning and

Michigan wasn’t really as active and as proactive. And right now, I mean, if you look at the offensive linemen that both schools would have taken and both schools wanted, it’s one to one. Michigan got one, Ohio State got one. I have Nathaniel Owusu -Boteng on my list. He’s a linebacker at IMG Academy. Very, very good. He’s the brother of Jeremiah Owusu -Koromoa, who currently plays for the Cleveland Browns, former Notre Dame guy. So.

There’s a lot of schools in the Midwest that are in on him. Ohio State and Michigan are two programs there. I think this kind of underscores maybe Ohio State’s changing model on their defensive side. Like they’re looking at Justin Hill. You know, they kind of use, they kind of see him as like a Jack type player. It looks like they want a third linebacker. It looks like they’re trying to get a little bit more versatile. So that’s just kind of something to monitor. Jordan Davison is on that list as well for me. He is taking a visit to Michigan. There is...

some not concern, but there is some level or lack of concern for Ohio State because Ohio State is his last visit. He’s going to visit Ohio State last. I think Michigan’s second on that list. But I think taking an official visit to Michigan is noteworthy, especially considering, I don’t know if you’ve heard, but Michigan hired a new running backs coach in the last couple of months. Perhaps we can talk about that some more. But Jordan Davison obviously does have a relationship with Tony Alford.

And now he’s considering both schools. I mean, he’s been considering both schools, but he is going to take an official to both. You know, there are a lot of crystal balls out there for Ohio State. It seems like it’s going well for Ohio State, but notable in that regard. I threw Mark Zachary on this list because of what happened with Blake Woodby because of, you know, if you, you know, if you follow like Nahim offered recently over the weekend and last week was on a visit to Oregon. You know, you wonder what’s going on there.

Andrew (57:32.302)

I threw Mark Zachary on this list because he’s going to commit this week and it sounds like it’s going to be Notre Dame, but Michigan is still in that mix. We know that programs don’t back off and Ohio State was interested in Mark Zachary, the kid out of Indianapolis at Ben Davis High School. They were interested in Zachary and then they just got an HEMA offer and Devin Sanchez was like, would be, and they’re like, all right, well, we’re good. So you wonder, all right, well, what if it’s Devin Sanchez and then, and then what?

You know, there were people that I was talking to before where, you know, they would say, you know, a lot of years a kid like Mark Zachary ends up at Ohio State. And it’s just so happened that they had, you know, elite level corners. And what happens if you only have one of them? What happens if you have even if you have two of them and you want three? So Zachary, I want to throw on that list just because I think that, you know, that could be something where, you know, even if he is committed, I think Ohio State, Michigan won’t back off there. You go to 2026, a lot of in -state kids.

Noah Grubbs is a quarterback. Ohio State, I think, would have the edge there with quarterback, kind of whoever you want. But is Ohio State going to go after Grubbs? Like, are they going to move on Grubbs? Is Grubbs the guy that they want? That’s going to be a great question to monitor over the next couple of weeks and couple of months. Is Grubbs the guy that Ohio State wants to move on? Is Grubbs the guy Michigan wants to move on? There’s something there.

We’ve talked about the three offensive linemen, the three big offensive linemen from the state of Ohio in 2026, Maxwell Riley, Sam Greer, Will Conroy, Riley goes to Avon Lake, Greer goes to Archbishop Hoban in the Akron area, Will Conroy goes to Ignatius in Cleveland. Michigan’s offered all three of them. It seems like Michigan is maybe the biggest threat for Greer right now. I think that that would be something to monitor. But we’ve mentioned this on the pod. If Ohio State lands Riley, Greer, Conroy,

That’s a great offensive line, like building block right out of the gate. So, you know, that that’s something in the monitor too is Ken Michigan kind of rattle the cages of Ohio State’s offensive line class, because that should be the class that Ohio State is able to help turn around its offensive line in 2026. So keep that in mind. Another guy I have on the list, last guy, Albert Hill, is a kid also out of Hoban. You know, he’s a corner Ohio State again seems to have the inside track there, but like.

Andrew (59:52.366)

Is that a player who, for whatever reason, some guys that grow up in the state of Ohio and they just want to go to Michigan, is that one of those guys? Is Albert one of those players? We’ll see. It is early. Steven, you mentioned it. These guys are high school sophom*ores. They haven’t even taken AP US history yet. That’s an extremely inside baseball joke for those of you who had to do that. So they’re still early in their high school careers. There’s still a long way to go, especially for the 2026 kids. But...

There are some names here that are going to be worth monitoring, and I’m sure there’s going to be more names that pop up here over these next couple of weeks and couple of months and maybe even a year as we get closer to these guys’ signing days.

Stephen Means (01:00:35.776)

So I’ll say number two class in 2025, Michigan, the number 36 class in 2025 and number in Ohio State, the number nine class in 2026. But I mean, they’ve only got one commitment. That’s Christian Reno. Michigan has yet to get their first commit in 2026. It’s going to be interesting to see where those battles are. There have been some in the past where you had Jordan Marshall in the 2024 class as a running back out of Ohio that Michigan pulled out of there. But then Aaron Scott and Bryce West stayed home choosing Ohio State over Michigan. So there’s always a couple. And to your point, they’re typically the Midwest kids.

So it’s going to be interesting to see how that continues to play out over the next couple of months. It really the next couple of years here where we’re talking 25 and 26. Get the text 614 -350 -3315. We’re a week away from official visits, officially starting up that first visit weekend on Memorial Weekend, May 31st. And then I’ll basically be every weekend in June going forward. The summer camps are right around the corner. Andrew will be out there. I’ll be out there too. We’ll be watching kids, talking with people. So get the text 614 -315 -3315.

3 -5 -0, 3 -3 -1 -5, two week free trial, 399 after that. That’ll wrap up day three of Michigan Week. Day four, we’re drafting the top 20 players expected to play in the 2024 version of the game. That means you can take in a Michigan guy, you can take in an Ohio State guy. It’s gonna be interesting to see how many Michigan guys get taken, how many Ohio State guys get taken, and who ends up being the number one overall pick. I’ll save that for.

I’ll save it for who’s going to be getting that number one overall pick. They’ll actually be finding that information out this morning as you’re listening to this pod. I randomized it. So I’m literally going to say this in the email. Don’t blame me, blame the robots if you don’t like your spot in the draft. But it is what it is. And then obviously we’ll close things out on Friday with a pod exploring the possibility, the reality that we now live in a world where Ohio State could win a national championship, but also lose to Michigan and how as a fan.

how you would feel about that, which might end up being a generational conversation, depending on how old you are and what type of fan you are. So get the text 614 -350 -3315. There’s a text and a survey going out about that right now. But for Andrew Gillis, I’m Stephen Means, and that was Buckeye Talk.

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